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<DIV><FONT face=Arial color=#0000ff size=2><SPAN
class=906434316-01122004>David,</SPAN></FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial color=#0000ff size=2><SPAN
class=906434316-01122004></SPAN></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial color=#0000ff size=2><SPAN class=906434316-01122004>Our
operating environment has not yet stabilized - early beta testers didn't get the
proper port stability tests and our entire user base has not been
upgraded. However, early indications are that 50 to 60 percent of
firewalled users will benefit. Again though, the harshest firewalled users
probably have not had a good experience with P2P software so we are working with
a self selected crew. This method does work with the Windows XP
firewall so we expect it to be widely successful as XP becomes further
adopted. </SPAN></FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial color=#0000ff size=2><SPAN
class=906434316-01122004></SPAN></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial color=#0000ff size=2><SPAN class=906434316-01122004>One
improvement that we can make is to our existing scheme is to handle
firewalls/NATs that use a sequential port assignment algorithm for each
attempt. Rather than just trying a fixed port, we could try to negotiate a
connection with that port +1, +2 and +3. I'm not sure what percentage of
users would really benefit from this though.</SPAN></FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial color=#0000ff size=2><SPAN
class=906434316-01122004></SPAN></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial color=#0000ff size=2><SPAN class=906434316-01122004>As has
been mentioned here recently, we certainly have noticed that incoming TCP
connections are often possible after the same type of UDP pinging. We have
no numbers on that though.</SPAN></FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial color=#0000ff size=2><SPAN
class=906434316-01122004></SPAN></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial color=#0000ff size=2><SPAN
class=906434316-01122004>Thanks</SPAN></FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial color=#0000ff size=2><SPAN
class=906434316-01122004>-greg</SPAN></FONT></DIV>
<BLOCKQUOTE dir=ltr
style="PADDING-LEFT: 5px; MARGIN-LEFT: 5px; BORDER-LEFT: #0000ff 2px solid; MARGIN-RIGHT: 0px">
<DIV class=OutlookMessageHeader dir=ltr align=left><FONT face=Tahoma
size=2>-----Original Message-----<BR><B>From:</B> p2p-hackers-bounces@zgp.org
[mailto:p2p-hackers-bounces@zgp.org]<B>On Behalf Of </B>David
Barrett<BR><B>Sent:</B> Tuesday, November 30, 2004 7:35 PM<BR><B>To:</B>
'Peer-to-peer development.'<BR><B>Subject:</B> RE: [p2p-hackers] Why UDP and
not TCP?<BR><BR></FONT></DIV>
<DIV class=Section1>
<P class=MsoNormal><FONT face=Arial color=navy size=2><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; COLOR: navy; FONT-FAMILY: Arial">That’s pretty
sweet. Do you know what fraction of firewalls “in the wild” allow for
this capability?<o:p></o:p></SPAN></FONT></P>
<P class=MsoNormal><FONT face=Arial color=navy size=2><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; COLOR: navy; FONT-FAMILY: Arial"><o:p> </o:p></SPAN></FONT></P>
<P class=MsoNormal><FONT face=Arial color=navy size=2><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; COLOR: navy; FONT-FAMILY: Arial">I’m no firewall nor
security expert, but I was under the impression a typical corporate firewall
blocks most TCP ports, and virtually (or even) all UDP ports. Do you
have any stats on what fraction of firewall users are able to take advantage
of this feature?<o:p></o:p></SPAN></FONT></P>
<P class=MsoNormal><FONT face=Arial color=navy size=2><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; COLOR: navy; FONT-FAMILY: Arial"><o:p> </o:p></SPAN></FONT></P>
<P class=MsoNormal><FONT face=Arial color=navy size=2><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; COLOR: navy; FONT-FAMILY: Arial">-david<o:p></o:p></SPAN></FONT></P>
<P class=MsoNormal><FONT face=Arial color=navy size=2><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; COLOR: navy; FONT-FAMILY: Arial"><o:p> </o:p></SPAN></FONT></P>
<DIV
style="BORDER-RIGHT: medium none; PADDING-RIGHT: 0in; BORDER-TOP: medium none; PADDING-LEFT: 4pt; PADDING-BOTTOM: 0in; BORDER-LEFT: blue 1.5pt solid; PADDING-TOP: 0in; BORDER-BOTTOM: medium none">
<DIV>
<DIV class=MsoNormal style="TEXT-ALIGN: center" align=center><FONT
face="Times New Roman" size=3><SPAN style="FONT-SIZE: 12pt">
<HR tabIndex=-1 align=center width="100%" SIZE=2>
</SPAN></FONT></DIV>
<P class=MsoNormal><B><FONT face=Tahoma size=2><SPAN
style="FONT-WEIGHT: bold; FONT-SIZE: 10pt; FONT-FAMILY: Tahoma">From:</SPAN></FONT></B><FONT
face=Tahoma size=2><SPAN style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; FONT-FAMILY: Tahoma">
p2p-hackers-bounces@zgp.org [mailto:p2p-hackers-bounces@zgp.org] <B><SPAN
style="FONT-WEIGHT: bold">On Behalf Of </SPAN></B>Greg Bildson<BR><B><SPAN
style="FONT-WEIGHT: bold">Sent:</SPAN></B> Tuesday, November 30, 2004 5:00
PM<BR><B><SPAN style="FONT-WEIGHT: bold">To:</SPAN></B> Peer-to-peer
development.<BR><B><SPAN style="FONT-WEIGHT: bold">Subject:</SPAN></B> RE:
[p2p-hackers] Why UDP and not TCP?</SPAN></FONT><o:p></o:p></P></DIV>
<P class=MsoNormal><FONT face="Times New Roman" size=3><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 12pt"><o:p> </o:p></SPAN></FONT></P>
<DIV>
<P class=MsoNormal><FONT face=Arial color=blue size=2><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; COLOR: blue; FONT-FAMILY: Arial">David,</SPAN></FONT><o:p></o:p></P></DIV>
<DIV>
<P class=MsoNormal><FONT face="Times New Roman" size=3><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 12pt"> <o:p></o:p></SPAN></FONT></P></DIV>
<DIV>
<P class=MsoNormal><FONT face=Arial color=blue size=2><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; COLOR: blue; FONT-FAMILY: Arial">Yeah, the code has
been in beta for a while. </SPAN></FONT><o:p></o:p></P></DIV>
<DIV>
<P class=MsoNormal><FONT face="Times New Roman" size=3><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 12pt"> <o:p></o:p></SPAN></FONT></P></DIV>
<DIV>
<P class=MsoNormal><FONT face=Arial color=blue size=2><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; COLOR: blue; FONT-FAMILY: Arial">It is UDP
based. If all UDP is blocked then it won't work and wont be
attempted. We do a lot to first ensure that you can receive solicited
UDP which is what this feature relies on. i.e. If you send a packet to X
via UDP and you are behind a NAT/Firewall, you can receive a response
back. In LimeWire terms, you are then said to be firewall capable and
your searches and responses indicate this.
</SPAN></FONT><o:p></o:p></P></DIV>
<DIV>
<P class=MsoNormal><FONT face=Arial color=blue size=2><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; COLOR: blue; FONT-FAMILY: Arial"> </SPAN></FONT><o:p></o:p></P></DIV>
<DIV>
<P class=MsoNormal><FONT face=Arial color=blue size=2><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; COLOR: blue; FONT-FAMILY: Arial">There are many ways
to negotiate the initiation of the connection on both sides. LimeWire
has a concept of a push proxy for firewalled hosts so we actually use that to
deliver a special PUSH message that tells the host to initiate a UDP
connection to ip:port. Both ends then start sending UDP messages at each
other and shortly thereafter, they should both be able to receive those
messages. A type of TCP style connection negotiation begins from
there. Just to be clear, this is not proxying. The only thing that
is proxied, is the PUSH message to trigger the actions of the
uploader.</SPAN></FONT><o:p></o:p></P></DIV>
<DIV>
<P class=MsoNormal><FONT face="Times New Roman" size=3><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 12pt"> <o:p></o:p></SPAN></FONT></P></DIV>
<DIV>
<P class=MsoNormal><FONT face=Arial color=blue size=2><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; COLOR: blue; FONT-FAMILY: Arial">The FAQ is out of
date.</SPAN></FONT><o:p></o:p></P></DIV>
<DIV>
<P class=MsoNormal><FONT face="Times New Roman" size=3><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 12pt"> <o:p></o:p></SPAN></FONT></P></DIV>
<DIV>
<P class=MsoNormal><FONT face=Arial color=blue size=2><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; COLOR: blue; FONT-FAMILY: Arial">Thanks</SPAN></FONT><o:p></o:p></P></DIV>
<DIV>
<P class=MsoNormal><FONT face=Arial color=blue size=2><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; COLOR: blue; FONT-FAMILY: Arial">-greg</SPAN></FONT><o:p></o:p></P></DIV>
<BLOCKQUOTE
style="BORDER-RIGHT: medium none; PADDING-RIGHT: 0in; BORDER-TOP: medium none; PADDING-LEFT: 4pt; PADDING-BOTTOM: 0in; MARGIN: 5pt 0in 5pt 3.75pt; BORDER-LEFT: blue 1.5pt solid; PADDING-TOP: 0in; BORDER-BOTTOM: medium none">
<P class=MsoNormal style="MARGIN-BOTTOM: 12pt"><FONT face=Tahoma
size=2><SPAN style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; FONT-FAMILY: Tahoma">-----Original
Message-----<BR><B><SPAN style="FONT-WEIGHT: bold">From:</SPAN></B>
p2p-hackers-bounces@zgp.org [mailto:p2p-hackers-bounces@zgp.org]<B><SPAN
style="FONT-WEIGHT: bold">On Behalf Of </SPAN></B>David Barrett<BR><B><SPAN
style="FONT-WEIGHT: bold">Sent:</SPAN></B> Tuesday, November 30, 2004 6:28
PM<BR><B><SPAN style="FONT-WEIGHT: bold">To:</SPAN></B> 'Peer-to-peer
development.'<BR><B><SPAN style="FONT-WEIGHT: bold">Subject:</SPAN></B> RE:
[p2p-hackers] Why UDP and not TCP?</SPAN></FONT><o:p></o:p></P>
<P class=MsoNormal><FONT face=Arial color=navy size=2><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; COLOR: navy; FONT-FAMILY: Arial">How does the
Firewall-to-Firewall portion of Limewire work? Does it use
un-firewalled clients as relay servers? It doesn’t sound like it, but
I thought that’s the only solution that truly works in all
situations.<o:p></o:p></SPAN></FONT></P>
<P class=MsoNormal><FONT face=Arial color=navy size=2><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; COLOR: navy; FONT-FAMILY: Arial"><o:p> </o:p></SPAN></FONT></P>
<P class=MsoNormal><FONT face=Arial color=navy size=2><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; COLOR: navy; FONT-FAMILY: Arial">The “features
history” page mentions this on the entry for
8.12.2004:<o:p></o:p></SPAN></FONT></P>
<P class=MsoNormal><FONT face=Arial color=navy size=2><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; COLOR: navy; FONT-FAMILY: Arial"><o:p> </o:p></SPAN></FONT></P>
<P class=MsoNormal style="MARGIN-LEFT: 0.5in"><FONT face=Arial color=navy
size=2><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; COLOR: navy; FONT-FAMILY: Arial">“Firewall to
Firewall transfers allows two people behind firewalls to connect directly to
each other and transfer data. <B><SPAN style="FONT-WEIGHT: bold">This makes
use of UDP, and a third party to coordinate the initial
messaging.</SPAN></B> … Normally, firewalled users would only be able to
download from other hosts who are not firewalled, which is of course
severely limited. With firewall to firewall transfers, firewalled users can
now access the full 100% of hosts.”<o:p></o:p></SPAN></FONT></P>
<P class=MsoNormal><FONT face=Arial color=navy size=2><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; COLOR: navy; FONT-FAMILY: Arial"><o:p> </o:p></SPAN></FONT></P>
<P class=MsoNormal><FONT face=Arial color=navy size=2><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; COLOR: navy; FONT-FAMILY: Arial">This implies
something like the NAT-to-NAT trick works with firewalls also. I’m a
little shaky on how UDP works with firewalls, do both clients initiate a
conversation with a third party, and then the third party hands back
information IP/port information of the pre-established out-bound
connection? How does this work if the firewall simply blocks all UDP
traffic?<o:p></o:p></SPAN></FONT></P>
<P class=MsoNormal><FONT face=Arial color=navy size=2><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; COLOR: navy; FONT-FAMILY: Arial"><o:p> </o:p></SPAN></FONT></P>
<P class=MsoNormal><FONT face=Arial color=navy size=2><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; COLOR: navy; FONT-FAMILY: Arial">However, the
website is either out of date or there’s more to the story because the FAQ
says:<o:p></o:p></SPAN></FONT></P>
<P class=MsoNormal style="MARGIN-LEFT: 0.5in"><FONT face=Arial color=navy
size=2><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; COLOR: navy; FONT-FAMILY: Arial"><o:p> </o:p></SPAN></FONT></P>
<P class=MsoNormal style="MARGIN-LEFT: 0.5in"><FONT face=Arial color=navy
size=2><SPAN style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; COLOR: navy; FONT-FAMILY: Arial"><A
href="http://www.limewire.com/english/content/faq.shtml#fir1">http://www.limewire.com/english/content/faq.shtml#fir1</A>
<o:p></o:p></SPAN></FONT></P>
<P class=MsoNormal style="MARGIN-LEFT: 0.5in"><FONT face=Arial color=navy
size=2><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; COLOR: navy; FONT-FAMILY: Arial"><o:p> </o:p></SPAN></FONT></P>
<P class=MsoNormal style="MARGIN-LEFT: 0.5in"><FONT face=Arial color=navy
size=2><SPAN style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; COLOR: navy; FONT-FAMILY: Arial">“Q:
What if I’m behind a firewall?<o:p></o:p></SPAN></FONT></P>
<P class=MsoNormal style="MARGIN-LEFT: 0.5in"><FONT face=Arial color=navy
size=2><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; COLOR: navy; FONT-FAMILY: Arial"><o:p> </o:p></SPAN></FONT></P>
<P class=MsoNormal style="MARGIN-LEFT: 0.5in"><FONT face=Arial color=navy
size=2><SPAN style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; COLOR: navy; FONT-FAMILY: Arial">A:
LimeWire will work when a user is behind certain types of firewalls, but
will not work behind certain other types. <B><SPAN
style="FONT-WEIGHT: bold">If you are behind a firewall, you will not be able
to download anything from a user that’s also behind a firewall.</SPAN></B>
In general, if you can connect (you will see your “connection status” in the
lower left hand corner of the application) using LimeWire, you should be
able to download and upload files, but LimeWire will not work if you have
either a web-only proxy or a SOCKS proxy.”<o:p></o:p></SPAN></FONT></P>
<P class=MsoNormal style="MARGIN-LEFT: 0.5in"><FONT face=Arial color=navy
size=2><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; COLOR: navy; FONT-FAMILY: Arial"><o:p> </o:p></SPAN></FONT></P>
<P class=MsoNormal><FONT face=Arial color=navy size=2><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; COLOR: navy; FONT-FAMILY: Arial">What’s the full
story?<o:p></o:p></SPAN></FONT></P>
<P class=MsoNormal><FONT face=Arial color=navy size=2><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; COLOR: navy; FONT-FAMILY: Arial"><o:p> </o:p></SPAN></FONT></P>
<P class=MsoNormal><FONT face=Arial color=navy size=2><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; COLOR: navy; FONT-FAMILY: Arial">-david<o:p></o:p></SPAN></FONT></P>
<P class=MsoNormal><FONT face=Arial color=navy size=2><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; COLOR: navy; FONT-FAMILY: Arial"><o:p> </o:p></SPAN></FONT></P>
<DIV
style="BORDER-RIGHT: medium none; PADDING-RIGHT: 0in; BORDER-TOP: medium none; PADDING-LEFT: 4pt; PADDING-BOTTOM: 0in; BORDER-LEFT: blue 1.5pt solid; PADDING-TOP: 0in; BORDER-BOTTOM: medium none">
<DIV>
<DIV class=MsoNormal style="TEXT-ALIGN: center" align=center><FONT
face="Times New Roman" size=3><SPAN style="FONT-SIZE: 12pt">
<HR tabIndex=-1 align=center width="100%" SIZE=2>
</SPAN></FONT></DIV>
<P class=MsoNormal><B><FONT face=Tahoma size=2><SPAN
style="FONT-WEIGHT: bold; FONT-SIZE: 10pt; FONT-FAMILY: Tahoma">From:</SPAN></FONT></B><FONT
face=Tahoma size=2><SPAN style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; FONT-FAMILY: Tahoma">
p2p-hackers-bounces@zgp.org [mailto:p2p-hackers-bounces@zgp.org] <B><SPAN
style="FONT-WEIGHT: bold">On Behalf Of </SPAN></B>Greg Bildson<BR><B><SPAN
style="FONT-WEIGHT: bold">Sent:</SPAN></B> Tuesday, November 30, 2004 2:12
PM<BR><B><SPAN style="FONT-WEIGHT: bold">To:</SPAN></B> Peer-to-peer
development.<BR><B><SPAN style="FONT-WEIGHT: bold">Subject:</SPAN></B> RE:
[p2p-hackers] Why UDP and not TCP?</SPAN></FONT><o:p></o:p></P></DIV>
<P class=MsoNormal><FONT face="Times New Roman" size=3><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 12pt"><o:p> </o:p></SPAN></FONT></P>
<DIV>
<P class=MsoNormal><FONT face=Arial color=black size=2><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; COLOR: black; FONT-FAMILY: Arial">If you believe
that there are problems with LimeWire, you should submit them to <A
href="mailto:bugs@limewire">bugs@limewire</A> and they will be looked
into promptly. If you have not already, you should also upgrade
to version 4.2.3 to get rid of some potential startup issues with old
GWebcaches.<o:p></o:p></SPAN></FONT></P></DIV>
<DIV>
<P class=MsoNormal><FONT face=Arial color=black size=2><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; COLOR: black; FONT-FAMILY: Arial"> <o:p></o:p></SPAN></FONT></P></DIV>
<DIV>
<P class=MsoNormal><FONT face=Arial color=black size=2><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; COLOR: black; FONT-FAMILY: Arial">LimeWire is a
"good new" p2p application - check out that firewall-to-firewall transfer in
the new version. ;)<o:p></o:p></SPAN></FONT></P></DIV>
<DIV>
<P class=MsoNormal><FONT face=Arial color=black size=2><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; COLOR: black; FONT-FAMILY: Arial"> <o:p></o:p></SPAN></FONT></P></DIV>
<DIV>
<P class=MsoNormal><FONT face=Arial color=black size=2><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; COLOR: black; FONT-FAMILY: Arial">Thanks<o:p></o:p></SPAN></FONT></P></DIV>
<DIV>
<P class=MsoNormal><FONT face=Arial color=black size=2><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; COLOR: black; FONT-FAMILY: Arial">-greg<o:p></o:p></SPAN></FONT></P></DIV>
<BLOCKQUOTE
style="BORDER-RIGHT: medium none; PADDING-RIGHT: 0in; BORDER-TOP: medium none; PADDING-LEFT: 4pt; PADDING-BOTTOM: 0in; MARGIN: 5pt 0in 5pt 3.75pt; BORDER-LEFT: black 1.5pt solid; PADDING-TOP: 0in; BORDER-BOTTOM: medium none">
<P class=MsoNormal style="MARGIN-BOTTOM: 12pt"><FONT face=Tahoma
color=black size=2><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; COLOR: black; FONT-FAMILY: Tahoma">-----Original
Message-----<BR><B><SPAN style="FONT-WEIGHT: bold">From:</SPAN></B>
p2p-hackers-bounces@zgp.org [mailto:p2p-hackers-bounces@zgp.org]<B><SPAN
style="FONT-WEIGHT: bold">On Behalf Of
</SPAN></B>Digitalgruvmoves@aol.com<BR><B><SPAN
style="FONT-WEIGHT: bold">Sent:</SPAN></B> Monday, November 29, 2004 9:10
PM<BR><B><SPAN style="FONT-WEIGHT: bold">To:</SPAN></B>
p2p-hackers@zgp.org<BR><B><SPAN
style="FONT-WEIGHT: bold">Subject:</SPAN></B> Re: [p2p-hackers] Why UDP
and not TCP?</SPAN></FONT><FONT face=Arial color=black size=2><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; COLOR: black; FONT-FAMILY: Arial"><o:p></o:p></SPAN></FONT></P>
<DIV>
<P class=MsoNormal><FONT id=role_document face=Arial color=black
size=2><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; COLOR: black; FONT-FAMILY: Arial">Whats a good new
p2p filesharing download to use? Limeware just started acting
nuts.<o:p></o:p></SPAN></FONT></P></DIV></BLOCKQUOTE></DIV></BLOCKQUOTE></DIV></DIV></BLOCKQUOTE></BODY></HTML>