[linux-elitists] How about a fork of Jessie without systemd?

Ruben Safir ruben at mrbrklyn.com
Sun May 15 16:42:00 PDT 2016


On Sun, May 15, 2016 at 10:18:13AM -0700, Don Marti wrote:
> begin Greg KH quotation of Sun, May 15, 2016 at 02:14:22AM +0200:
> > On Sat, May 14, 2016 at 04:38:49PM -0700, Ed Carp wrote:
> > > I'm particularly annoyed by systemd, period. Nothing wrong with the
> > > way things were
> > 
> > You are kidding, right?  Have you ever worked at that level?  Tried to
> > manage processes and services in a sane manner?  I've been dealing with
> > that problem since my first paid Linux job in 2000, and it didn't get
> > finally resolved until systemd.  There were lots of things wrong with
> > how things "were" before, perhaps you never worked down there?
> 
> I have written both init scripts and systemd unit
> files, for server-side packages of comparable
> complexity.  From the point of view of the package
> maintainer, systemd does have an edge.  You're writing
> fewer total lines and telling a well-documented
> program what to do, not invoking shell functions that
> can run arbitrary stuff.
> 


That is just NOT true.  The shell does what it is told...nothing arbitrary.
It is flexible and it DOES exactly what I want without having to use 
systemd.

> I also run a "mainstream" desktop distribution (with
> systemd) and the thing starts up faster than my Linux
> laptops used to.  Hard to break out how much of this
> is systemd socket activation, though. (this is where
> someone links to the obvious LWN article I should
> have cited.)
> 
> > > - systemd goes completely against the Unix idea of one
> > > small utility doing one thing well, and it just comes across as change
> > > for the sake of change as a monument to someone's ego.
> > 
> > Really, you want to drag this old disputed argument out again?  Tell me
> > how your old init system was a "do one thing well" program?
> 
> I don't get the "Unix Philosophy" thing.

yes you do...

> 
> Posts about "this functionality is broken on systemd
> but not OpenRC" are great, but "Unix Philosophy"?
> What did that get us?  A bunch of failing vendors in
> the 1990s, and the inevitability of Windows NT.
> 
>   http://gabriellacoleman.org/blog/?p=1729
> 
> The "philosophers" of Unix let themselves be rounded
> up and made irrelevant.
> 
> If you want to build a better init system, build a
> better init system.  

systemd is __NOT__ an init system
so lets stop pretending that we are comparing apples here when
we are comparing apples and windows...

<snip>
> > Remember back when Linux users were the ones pushing the boundries of
> > things, solving real problems and being happy to handle major changes in
> > the quest to making something better?  I sure do.  

Umm, no you don't  Linux users where forging social change 

There has never been a technological alteration of the OS as signifant as the installation
of systemd as the mommy application between me and my system.  It's placement into the
middle of the OS allow makes it a complete non-starter.

> The real question is
> > why have the others on this list, who have been complaining about a
> > system library being replaced that they didn't have anything to do with,
> > have forgotten about why they started using Linux in the first place.
> 

Actually, there were compalints about REAL innovations not moving fast enough and
the implementation of threads and forks being merged.  And there were intense conversations
about Apaches adoption of threads and Java being foisted on the application layers and so on.

This is not even a real innovation.  In fact it will kill innovation as it absorbs
one independent project after the next, with no end in sight.

The reason why systemd is so HATED is because it breaks OS's paridign by putting a single
application incharge of nearly the entire OS, which is why I call it a Kernel Wrapper..
because it is.

It has eliminated getty processes and emulates them, very slowly I might add, for sentimental
reasons, it monitors processes and refuses killall -9 signals, it restructured init traditional
systems and threw a bone to shell script writers, it absorbed login, X11, pts, removed plain english logs
with an easily corruptable single binary, it has decreased overall performance it a crawl, etc etc etc.

And it is gonna be attached... just watch.  It is gonna be one big fat ugly hackers target and
there will be nobody to patch it.

It has turned Linux into a windows clone and I have NO INTEREST.

This is not a theorectical conversaiton.  I've been dealing with the horrors of ALL of systemd
for 3 years, and in about 14 days - it is finally being dispacts, happely for Manjoro of openrc.

I'm not even interested in debating this any longer.  People advocating for systemd are NUTS.
There is no point in arguing with them and I'm not interested, any longer, in anyones independent
accesement on its "advantages".  Its advantages are disadvantaged, big bother  top down designs.  
This is a huge step backwards.  The revolution of Linux that you are talking about was decenitralization,
collaberation, indpendence, community, and cooperation.  These are not in the vocabulary of systemd's 
design or its creators ambitions.

When I see systemd it makes me depressed.  I feel like I've now lived to my 50's and I've worked for
30 years trying to empower individuals through technology... but with the dual forks of Android
and systemd, I feel I haven't made even the slightest dent.  We are charging into a very bleak and
dark future and there seems to be nothing I can do drive history in a different direction.  I 
underestimated the danger of young people not having experience of previous generations and spending
their short lifetimesi, instead of learning from their parents, to surrounded completely by a corperate 
marketing plan that has the time and patience to span generations.

Your like, "Hey your a slave like that, and you have lost control of your life, " and they are like, i
"Yeah but I am a well fed slave I get free and limitless porn, and an HIV prevent drug, and I got 50% 
off this neat Coach bag that I can show everone on my social networking feed that Watson is listening in on".

> One cool systemd feature that I want to try is
> multiseat:
> 

Yeah well maybe after I can coax it to give me a terminal quickly and run X11 on a second display
and kill apache when I SAY SO.  Also its journal grows too quickly slowing everything down, probably because 
everything is now dumped into that one binary...

That just kills my apache debugging, and has made me restart my server more times in the last 6 months than
they previous decade....

Multiseat, and all those years the kids were playing crossfire off the main server upstairs...they were all 
"single seat"

<snip>

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DRM is THEFT - We are the STAKEHOLDERS - RI Safir 2002
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