[linux-elitists] How about a fork of Jessie without systemd?

Ruben Safir ruben at mrbrklyn.com
Wed Aug 5 16:18:59 PDT 2015

I need tpo print this to keep up with this :)

On Wed, Aug 05, 2015 at 10:49:25AM -0700, Rick Moen wrote:
> Quoting Ruben Safir (ruben at mrbrklyn.com):
> > Well, Gnome does that applications which are useful and the sound
> > integration was decent before it went off the rails.
> Well, luckily for you, the problem isn't with GNOME applicatiosn but
> rather with GNOME.  Remember the list?  gnome-bluetooth,
> gnome-settings-daemon, gdm3, gnome-core, gnome-disk-utility, pcmanfm,
> daisy-player, and a couple of other obscure apps that require
> policykit-1 that in turn requires systemd.  
> Do you see Abiword in that list?  Gnumeric?  No, you don't.  Like me,
> you like to run those GNOME applications under Window Maker.  And
> there's nothing preventing you from running those and a dozen or two
> other GNOME applications, because 'GNOME applicaition' means only that
> it depends on gnome-libs and gtk, not that it necessarily requires
> anything else.  _GNOME_ as a framework has a problem, because things
> like gnome-settings-daemon, gdm3, gnome-core, gnome-disk-utility have
> dependency problems, but individual GNOME applications do not.
> Honestly, was that actually difficult to figure out?  Surely you've
> understood for many years that each DE is merely a suite of X11
> applications with a common look and feel on account of some libs and a
> graphics toolkit they all use, and nothing prevents you from using those
> applications on an a la carte basis without needing the whole DE.
> > I have had compains adopt gnome screadsheets, their quicken like
> > finance program, and video editing programs.
> If you had complaints about _them_, that has nothing to do with systemd.
> But I suspect you're confused, and failing to understnad the difference
> between GNOME as a whole and GNOME applications.
> Fix that.  
> > Additionallym the network manager seems to succeed at the universities
> > wifi in a way that wicd just won't.
> > 
> > don't ask me why.
> Once again, we get to remedial details:
> NetworkManager is merely and purely a front-end to Wireless Tools for
> Linux and wpa_supplicant.  So is wicd.  So is connman.   (Well, as Marc
> points out, NetworkManager's feature bloat means it also calls Bluetooth
> network code.)  
> So, any WiFi networking connection that can be initiated by one can
> be initiated by any of the others _or_ with no wireless network manager 
> at all.  Yeah, _no_ wireless network manager:  Remember iwconfig / 
> ifrename / iwgetid / iwlist / iwpriv / iwspy?  They still work fine.
> Not able to make iwconfig work?  Figure it out.  It's not significantly
> more complex than iwconfig, and there's a perfeclty suitable man page.
> > But forget Gnome.  X11 needs an entire backport configuration to reroot
> > it and make it work without systemd.
> No, it actually doesn't.
> I really don't know what exact idiocy you got into with OpenSUSE, but I
> have a running instance of Debian Jessie in front of me with package
> xserver-common package version 1.16.4 , which is to say, current.  It
> looks to me that _if_ there _were_ a lack of root user privilege to
> start the Xorg server -- which there is not -- then 'man 5
> Xwrapper.config' would tell you wnat to put on the
> /etc/X11/Xwrapper.config line to fix that.
> Which is what I said upthread, except I'm saying it in more detail this
> time.
> I didn't need any existing expertise to know that, which is lucky
> because I actually didn't know that -- until I did 30 seconds of Web
> searching a couple of days ago.
> Welcome to the Internet.  Occasionally something needs 30 seconds of Web
> searching.
> > Is this hard?  It is for me.  It is definetely a fork in the package
> > design.
> You keep using this phrase.  I do not think it means what you think it
> means.
> Again, not certain what exact Xorg problem you ran into on OpenSUSE that
> proximately resulted (along with your 'init scripts' thing) in your
> running to Manjaro telling tales of terror about systemd, but all I'm
> _aware_ of happening with 'rootless X' is that some Xorg guys figured
> out about eight/ten years ago how Xorg _could_ be started without the
> need to run that massive graphics engine with root-user authority --
> which is A Good Thing, because the X server binary running as a big
> root-privilege process has always been a security Sword of Damocles.
> Nothing about that requires systemd, nor even PolKit, ConsoleKit,
> upower, udisk2, and the rest of the Freedesktop.org brass band.
> Maybe next time you have a technical problem, you should not overreact,
> change distributions, and go around yelling on mailing lists, but rather 
> do what the rest of us do:  Spend a little quality time with a search
> engine, grep some logfiles, tinker a little, fix it.
> > I'm not sure what you mean with this paragraph....
> So, you're going to ignore what I said, talk past me, and change the
> subject to something wildly different about use of UUIDs in partition
> mounts -- which if you don't like them (as I don't), don't use them (as
> I don't).  Towards which end, you might want to turn off DE automounters
> (as I do).
> If you run DEs with their whole marching bands of processes that each
> have their own ideas about how to run your system, don't act surprised 
> when your system is no longer being administered your way.  Again, this
> is Linux 101.  We should not be needing to have that conversation on
> linux-elitists in 2015.
> > I never made predictions.
> That bit about if things go the way they've been progressing was some
> _other_ Ruben Safir?
> > I love it when you write about me in the third party.
> THe correct phrase is 'third person' (e.g., 'he'), but what I wrote
> there was entirely second person (e.g., 'you').  As the saying goes, you
> could look it up.
> > You left out some essentle details.
> Quite probably because you never provided a coherent factual account --
> and you still haven't.
> And, by the way, the bit about how you could no longer run tried and
> tested init scripts doesn't make sense, either, because systemd-based
> distributions include the ability to parse and run SysVInit scripts.
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