[linux-elitists] How about a fork of Jessie without systemd?

Ruben Safir ruben at mrbrklyn.com
Wed Aug 5 09:46:42 PDT 2015

On Tue, Aug 04, 2015 at 11:24:26PM -0700, Rick Moen wrote:
> Quoting Ruben Safir (ruben at mrbrklyn.com):
> > It is hard to understand how it can be double digits.  Gnome depedent
> > packages alone is gigabytes of packages. Then there is is the affects to
> > X and logging.  This is a fork.  Your looking over your shoulder and
> > saying, I can run around this corner pretty quick right now.  yeah.  But
> > not in the future.  Not as things seem to be progressing.
> Because I need GNOME?  

Well, Gnome does that applications which are useful and the sound
integration was decentbefore it went off the rails.  I have had compains
adopt gnome screadsheets, their quicken like finance program, and video
editing programs.

Additionallym the network manager seems to succeed at the universities
wifi in a way that wicd just won't.

don't ask me why.

But forget Gnome.  X11 needs an entire backport configuration to reroot
it and make it work without systemd.  Is this hard?  It is for me.  It
is definetely a fork in the package design.

>I clearly do not, so that can't be why.  You
> don't say what 'progressing' means, here.  Cound that be because, I
> dunno, just spitballing here, the facts aren't on your side?
> It would take a massive uptake _outside_ GNOME of secondary
> Freedesktop.org 'desktop' software infrastructure with systemd
> dependencies -- PolKit, udisks2 -- before I would even perceive a
> problem of desirable packages I cannot get without the code hairball.
> And that's been predicted by you and some others for several years to be
> imminent, but continues to just not happen.

I'm not sure what you mean with this paragraph, but there is an
additional program of insane UIID name lables et al for flash drives and
CDROMs that frankly make me crazy.  I haven't had to ask where my fash
drive went for years.  Now I have to pour over dmesg and with systemd
binary logs to find them

> There have always been code hairballs in the Linux software ecosystem,
> and people have always bitched about excessive package dependency trees.  
> Stupid ideas have frequently been lobbed at use from desktop space.
> Remember when everything was going to need to work as object software in
> coordination with CORBA brokers?  Remember when everything was going to
> run with root authority because users can't handle the concepts of
> ownership and permissions?
> Things have not been 'progressing' over the years you've been making bad
> and poorly informed predictions.

I never made predictions. The only prediction I ever made was that the
GNU/Linux desktop as early as the late 1990'swas already superior to MS

and it still is

> The sum and substance of this is, a couple of years ago, some drama
> happened with you on OpenSUSE 12.x, and part of it involved inability to
> boot because of some startup task problem and systemd wouldn't let you
> get into the problem to recover the system.  And then there was some
> claim about how X.org moving to running X servers as a non-privileged
> users was horrible because doing so required Freedesktop.org tangleware
> pieces PolKit, systemd-logind, and upower[1], some of which require
> systemd -- when it simply not the case that X needs to require those.
> You cursed a blue streak, moved sideways from OpenSUSE to Manjaro, noted
> that your various problems went away, blamed them all on systemd, and
> started asserting that everyone else would soon be equally plagued.

I love it when you write about me in the third party.

You left out some essentle details.  Like researching the problems and
discovering that there was a courus of anger at systemd for this cludge
of a mess they made by unifying all the subsystems under one umbrella
and lecturing everyone to get with the program or get out of the linux

I. personally, have become very adapt at altering the configure and init
files for my systems, and created a fairly customized and working
environment for myself that has functioned for 15 years, and those tools
have been pulled out from under me with systemd.  Can I adapt them to
systemd.  Maybe?  I don't want to learn the damn thing.  It is a monster
and contantaly does what I don't expect.  I don't want to be forced into
change for its own sake.  I like systems KISS simple.  I don't want go
to the suse mailing list and be ridiculed for running init scripts that
have functioned for DECADES.  My email for help from lists had been
recieved by systemd proponents with childish ridicule and posturing.

Leanard Pottering and his whole Pancho Dia caverly can scratch my balls 

> And you keep saying that -- but it keeps not happening.
> One of us isn't really following the details of what's been going on.
> You can think it's me.  I will take that view under advisement.
> In case you want to understand the X server matter, here's a page by
> some Arch Linux people who've documented how to do systemd-free X.org
> even using MATE or Cinnamon.  Note in particular the section about
> 'Rootless X':  http://systemd-free.org/config.php
> [1] You didn't clarify that it was these pieces, because your account
> was incoherent, but I've since then figured out what you must have been
> referring to.
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