[linux-elitists] How about a fork of Jessie without systemd?

Rick Moen rick at linuxmafia.com
Tue Aug 4 23:24:26 PDT 2015

Quoting Ruben Safir (ruben at mrbrklyn.com):

> It is hard to understand how it can be double digits.  Gnome depedent
> packages alone is gigabytes of packages. Then there is is the affects to
> X and logging.  This is a fork.  Your looking over your shoulder and
> saying, I can run around this corner pretty quick right now.  yeah.  But
> not in the future.  Not as things seem to be progressing.

Because I need GNOME?  I clearly do not, so that can't be why.  You
don't say what 'progressing' means, here.  Cound that be because, I
dunno, just spitballing here, the facts aren't on your side?

It would take a massive uptake _outside_ GNOME of secondary
Freedesktop.org 'desktop' software infrastructure with systemd
dependencies -- PolKit, udisks2 -- before I would even perceive a
problem of desirable packages I cannot get without the code hairball.
And that's been predicted by you and some others for several years to be
imminent, but continues to just not happen.

There have always been code hairballs in the Linux software ecosystem,
and people have always bitched about excessive package dependency trees.  
Stupid ideas have frequently been lobbed at use from desktop space.
Remember when everything was going to need to work as object software in
coordination with CORBA brokers?  Remember when everything was going to
run with root authority because users can't handle the concepts of
ownership and permissions?

Things have not been 'progressing' over the years you've been making bad
and poorly informed predictions.

The sum and substance of this is, a couple of years ago, some drama
happened with you on OpenSUSE 12.x, and part of it involved inability to
boot because of some startup task problem and systemd wouldn't let you
get into the problem to recover the system.  And then there was some
claim about how X.org moving to running X servers as a non-privileged
users was horrible because doing so required Freedesktop.org tangleware
pieces PolKit, systemd-logind, and upower[1], some of which require
systemd -- when it simply not the case that X needs to require those.

You cursed a blue streak, moved sideways from OpenSUSE to Manjaro, noted
that your various problems went away, blamed them all on systemd, and
started asserting that everyone else would soon be equally plagued.

And you keep saying that -- but it keeps not happening.

One of us isn't really following the details of what's been going on.
You can think it's me.  I will take that view under advisement.

In case you want to understand the X server matter, here's a page by
some Arch Linux people who've documented how to do systemd-free X.org
even using MATE or Cinnamon.  Note in particular the section about
'Rootless X':  http://systemd-free.org/config.php

[1] You didn't clarify that it was these pieces, because your account
was incoherent, but I've since then figured out what you must have been
referring to.

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