[linux-elitists] How about a fork of Jessie without systemd?

Rick Moen rick at linuxmafia.com
Tue Aug 4 14:32:52 PDT 2015


Quoting Eugen Leitl (eugen at leitl.org):
> On Mon, Aug 03, 2015 at 11:24:58AM -0400, Bob Bernstein wrote:
> 
> > >Avoid dropping the GNOME or NetworkManager hammers on your foot,
> > >and your Debian Jessie system does not become a 'systemd-centric
> > >platform'.
> > 
> > And _that_ is my "take-away!"
> 
> But of course this is exactly the scenario that they told us
> wouldn't happen. And these are just the dependencies as of mid-2015.

(Just to stress:  I don't speak for the Debian Project in any way.  I
just use the stuff, and am otherwise a project outsider.)

To the extent there are things in Debian that now in 2015 require systemd 
-- by my count, 13 assorted regular packages (mostly GNOME things), 10
Debian installer packages, and 5 that require systemd only because
they're systemd-related, out of ~44,000 Debian x86_64 packages total --
they were largely imposed onto the Debian Project by upstream GNOME
decisions related to the GNOME 'login' API (seat support) and
Freedesktop.org developers' orphaning of ConsoleKit.

Even if the Debian Project had been militantly opposed to that upstream
development and undivided in its members' views, there isn't a lot they 
could have done without dropping GNOME as a supported and default DE.
Even the more strongly source code-oriented distros such as
Gentoo/Funtoo and Sorcerer/Lunar Linux have been caught up in the same
mess, even though they have greater overall ease of controlling
dependencies through custom build options, and less incentive to throw
in features to create one-size-fits-all binary packages.

Personally, I wish Debian Project _had_ opted to drop GNOME as a
supported and default DE.  However, from my perspective it's just as
good and functionally equivalent to just deliberately omit GNOME locally
(including NetworkManager, which is a GNOME codebase).

Over half a decade, accumulation of 28 packages out of ~44,000 with
dependencies on systemd strikes me as negligible -- unless of course you 
want GNOME or NetworkManager, in which case good luck with that, and
your beef should logically be with the GNOME / Freedesktop.org people,
not with the Debian Project -- irrespective of what someone (who?  Russ
Allbery?  the Technical Committee?  The Debian Project Leader?) some
years ago told you wouldn't happen.

Of course, for the folks who've never met a tangled software dependency
they didn't like, things are fine and getting better all the time.  Back
in the 90s, such things were called 'integration' in the IT press in
tones of great approval.  I think 'unifying' might have been in there,
too.



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