[linux-elitists] Packaging, deps, and office suites

Ruben Safir ruben@mrbrklyn.com
Tue Oct 30 23:30:58 PDT 2007

On Mon, Oct 29, 2007 at 08:21:49PM -0700, Karsten M. Self wrote:
> on Mon, Oct 29, 2007 at 09:54:33PM -0500, Ruben Safir (ruben@mrbrklyn.com) wrote:
> > > > > when their dependant package is removed.  
> > > > 
> > > > unless they shouldn't.  The whole package management concept is flawed.
> > > 
> > > Ah:  "It doesn't work."
> > > 
> > > Rant much?
> > > 
> > > Please see:
> > > 
> > >     http://www.chiark.greenend.org.uk/~sgtatham/bugs.html
> > > 
> > 
> > 
> > Interesting but a flawed paper ;)  Frankly, too much is expected from the
> > end user.  
> You're an elitist, right?  We expect a lot from elitists.

I'm an elistist like Jefferson not Louis the XIV (expect that I can't spell)

> > Most programs just crash without as much as a whimper.  They disapear like
> > a champain bubble.  Go tell the user to giver you detailed information about
> > how that happens.  Good luck.
> Strace is your friend.  If you need network information, run wireshark.
> In the case of most Debian install scripts (RH should be similar),
> running bash -x on the postinst script and logging the output generally
> works.  

Your killing me hear in laughter

I'll let you know when I find those .... after a few more beers

> When providing IRC support, to non-elite users, I request a
> pastebin of the output.  

Most programs crash without output. 

> We get a pretty good success rate by this
> method.
> > > If you can describe one or more specific instances of undesired behavior
> > > regarding package management behavior, please do.  Better yet, report
> > > them as bugs.  Effectively.
> > >
> > 
> > I don't want to turn this into a flame war, but packagemanagement is
> > just flawed conceptually.  
> Nice hand-wave.
> What distro?  What specific problem?  How long ago?  Stable or unstable
> release?

Google is your friend.  I've had these discussions over a decade now.
I'm sure your aware of ALL points anyway since this is standard flame war
> > It assumes a bunch of dependencies based on presumptions about the
> > distros, naming conventions, and more.  
> On distributions in which package management _works_, such things are
> dictated by policy, e.g.:  "3.1 The package name", in Debian, which
> includes "3.2 The version of a package".
> > Instead of keeping tract of stupid naming conventions and files in a
> > database, there already IS a database.  That database is called the
> > FILE SYSTEM, an organized collection of inodes.
> If you're interested in verifying the integrity of something other than
> those raw inodes, a packaging system can be most beneficial.
> > Programs should LOOK for their dependencies in a variety of rational
> > locations.  It should know that if lib 1.0 works, then 1.2 should
> > work, and be leery or 2.0 only if the programmer says so.
> ... and it's somehow easier to work directly with a diverse set of
> upstream developers rather than put an intermediary set of package
> maintainers who understand the current distro's policies, to
> disintermediate?

Correct.  Its actually obvious when you think about it.  After all, the
developer actually did compile his widget on a live system and all live
systems have libraries and all the libraries are GNU libraries, and that's
not infinite.  It is better to fix the program for EVERYONE if a real problem
does exist, than to engineer it into a Red Hat specific package.  Otherwise,
computers should search (for things like libraries on the hard drive), 
something they do exceptionaly well,  and leave people to do other things 
they are more suited for, LIKE PLAY WITH MULTI-MEDIA! and develop more source

> Peace.

Shalom! Shalom!

> -- 
> Karsten M. Self <karsten@linuxmafia.com>        http://linuxmafia.com/~karsten
>     Ceterum censeo, Caldera delenda est.

http://www.mrbrklyn.com - Interesting Stuff
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"Yeah - I write Free Software...so SUE ME"

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"> I'm an engineer. I choose the best tool for the job, politics be damned.<
You must be a stupid engineer then, because politcs and technology have been attached at the hip since the 1st dynasty in Ancient Egypt.  I guess you missed that one."

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