In his own words -- An agony in seven fits (was Re: [linux-elitists] Re: GNOME > you)

Karsten M. Self kmself@ix.netcom.com
Tue Jan 6 16:51:40 PST 2004


on Tue, Jan 06, 2004 at 10:33:06AM -0500, Chip Salzenberg (chip@pobox.com) wrote:
> According to Karsten M. Self:
> > [...] you're the handy whipping boy, and have a position of
> > responsibility within the culture) seem to have a hell of a time
> > comprehending.
> 
> /me googles for jeff waugh and gnome
> 
> Damn, he *is* in a position of responsibility.  I had been taking him
> as a motivated advocate of Gnome, not as a respresentative of the
> project.  But now...  Yow.
> 
> This suggests a more troubled future for Gnome than I had imagined.


It's pretty bad.

I'll assume you haven't been here for the whole of it, so, I present
you:


------------------------------------------------------------------------

Jeff Waugh, in his own words, 

   An agony in seven fits

   (with a small supporting cast)

------------------------------------------------------------------------

Act I: R-E-S-P-E-C-T:
---------------------

    From: Jeff Waugh <jdub@perkypants.org>
    Date: Thu, 2 Oct 2003 14:02:42 +1000
    Subject: Re: [linux-elitists] Yet another mozilla atrocity
    Message-ID: <20031002040242.GE17125@lazarus>

    <quote who="Aaron Lehmann">

    ...

    Boofhead.

    ----------------
    From: Jeff Waugh <jdub@perkypants.org>
    Date: Tue, 6 Jan 2004 16:27:07 +1100
    Subject: Re: [linux-elitists] Re: GNOME > you
    Message-ID: <20040106052707.GE1407@lazarus>

    <quote who="Karsten M. Self">

    You're not a user, nitwit.

    [Note:  his lips are moving...]

    ----------------
    From: Jeff Waugh <jdub@perkypants.org>
    Date: Sun, 4 Jan 2004 21:38:31 +1100
    Subject: Re: Is GNOME > you? (was Re: [linux-elitists] Re: GNOME > you)
    Message-ID: <20040104103831.GY8159@lazarus>

    <quote who="Aaron Lehmann">

    ...

    Twit,

    ----------------
    From: Jeff Waugh <jdub@perkypants.org>
    Date: Wed, 12 Nov 2003 18:24:51 +1100
    Subject: Re: [linux-elitists] What's wrong with PDF
    Message-ID: <20031112072450.GC31834@lazarus>

    Fuck off, Moen.

    ----------------
    From: Jeff Waugh <jdub@perkypants.org>
    Date: Thu, 9 Oct 2003 22:36:12 +1000
    Subject: Re: [linux-elitists] Re: Yet another mozilla atrocity
    Message-ID: <20031009123611.GL21801@lazarus>

    <quote who="Karsten M. Self">

    ...

    Do you mean, "I see shit all"? :-)

    ----------------
    From: Jeff Waugh <jdub@perkypants.org>
    Date: Sat, 4 Oct 2003 00:59:17 +1000
    Subject: Re: [linux-elitists] Re: Yet another mozilla atrocity
    Message-ID: <20031003145917.GQ1097@lazarus>

    <quote who="Rick Moen"

    ...

    Bitter much?

    [Note:  That was the text of Jeff's reply in total.]

    ----------------
    From: Jeff Waugh <jdub@perkypants.org>
    Date: Thu, 25 Dec 2003 01:21:48 +1100
    Subject: Re: [linux-elitists] Can we woo you first? [Was: How MS
    could woo me]
    Message-ID: <20031224142148.GH1205@lazarus>

    Right, well you left an impression as an ungrateful turd with a triple
    charisma bypass.

    [Memo to Self:  learn gratitude.]

    ----------------
    From: Jeff Waugh <jdub@perkypants.org>
    Date: Wed, 8 Oct 2003 16:54:47 +1000
    Subject: Re: [linux-elitists] Re: Yet another mozilla atrocity
    Message-ID: <20031008065447.GE21801@lazarus>

    Most users report bugs. Karsten is saying the design is wrong, and
    that he knows exactly how it should be, and exactly how simple it
    is. He's welcome to do it.

    [Note:  point of fact, I'm not saying I have a precise fix.  I do
    note several specific problems.  This largely regarding gconf
    registry.]

    Maybe he's just noise in the system. When you work on software as
    widely deployed as GNOME, you have to filter noise very
    aggressively.  Non-coders who think they know better than
    experienced coders are, more often than not, noise.

    ----------------
    From: Jeff Waugh <jdub@perkypants.org>
    Date: Tue, 6 Jan 2004 15:08:23 +1100
    Subject: Re: [linux-elitists] Re: GNOME > you
    Message-ID: <20040106040823.GW1407@lazarus>

    Nooooo, gather more relevant information from the user. Stop being
    such a tool, Karsten.

    ----------------
    From: Jeff Waugh <jdub@perkypants.org>
    Date: Sat, 3 Jan 2004 08:41:34 +1100
    Subject: Re: [linux-elitists] Re: GNOME > you
    Message-ID: <20040102214134.GT8159@lazarus>

    <quote who="Chip Salzenberg">

    See, if you want your clever little joke to be even more clever,
    think along the lines of "second system effect". That will have
    everyone snickering into their sleeves with glee. "Ha ha, he used
    FRANK BROOKS on that weird GNOME freak! Ha ha!"

    But you'd still be wrong.

    [Replying to a meme Waugh himself had initiated.  Can't take other
    peoples' criticism.  Can't take his own.]

    ----------------
    From: Jeff Waugh <jdub@perkypants.org>
    Date: Tue, 6 Jan 2004 16:23:10 +1100
    Subject: Re: [linux-elitists] Re: GNOME > you
    Message-ID: <20040106052310.GD1407@lazarus>

    No Karsten, you misunderstand. I ignore, berate and abuse *you*.

    ----------------
    From: Jeff Waugh <jdub@perkypants.org>
    Date: Sun, 4 Jan 2004 15:49:42 +1100
    Subject: Re: [linux-elitists] Re: GNOME > you
    Message-ID: <20040104044942.GM8159@lazarus>

    Heh. Ah, so all those options that we're comfortable putting in the
    Terminal because it's going to be used by power users... confused
    you? Ah ha ha. Ha.
    Ahem.

    ----------------
    From: Jeff Waugh <jdub@perkypants.org>
    Date: Sun, 4 Jan 2004 04:07:15 +1100
    Subject: Re: [linux-elitists] Re: GNOME > you
    Message-ID: <20040103170715.GN8159@lazarus>

    <quote who="Jay Sulzberger">

    Do you write novellas in your filenames? Like, seriously, what
    behaviour are you trying to optimise for here?

    ----------------
    From: Jeff Waugh <jdub@perkypants.org>
    Date: Tue, 6 Jan 2004 19:15:43 +1100
    Subject: Re: [linux-elitists] Re: GNOME > you
    Message-ID: <20040106081543.GY1407@lazarus>

    <quote who="Karsten M. Self">

    ...

    you are not interested in establishing a reasoned and thoughtful
    understanding on the issues. You just want to shit on our work, and now
    you're trolling the rest of the threads to get a reaction.

    [Memo to Self:  Pot & kettle inventory low-critical.]

    ----------------




Act II:  ...and from the Waugh and Gnome community, advice on GNOME:
--------------------------------------------------------------------


    From: Martin Pool <mbp@samba.org>
    Date: Fri, 3 Oct 2003 12:19:50 +1000
    Subject: Re: [linux-elitists] Re: Yet another mozilla atrocity
    Message-ID: <20031003021947.GD5393@vexed.ozlabs.hp.com>

    On  2 Oct 2003, Jeremy Hankins <nowan@nowan.org> wrote:

    ...

    So don't deal with it.  Don't use software that uses it.



Act III:  GNOME Targeting System...
-----------------------------------

    ----------------
    From: Jeff Waugh <jdub@perkypants.org>
    Date: Thu, 16 Oct 2003 00:43:45 +1000
    Subject: Re: [linux-elitists] Re: Yet another mozilla atrocity
    Message-ID: <20031015144345.GC3212@lazarus>

    (e) It is okay that you do not seem to be in our target audience. :-)

    ----------------
    From: Jeff Waugh <jdub@perkypants.org>
    Date: Fri, 2 Jan 2004 14:07:59 +1100
    Subject: Re: [linux-elitists] Re: GNOME > you
    Message-ID: <20040102030759.GD25087@lazarus>

    I'm not expecting you to be happy with my answers. "You're not the
    target audience." :-)



Act IV:  Relevance.  We've heard of it...
-----------------------------------------

    ----------------
    From: "Karsten M. Self" <kmself@ix.netcom.com>
    Date: Sat, 4 Oct 2003 00:09:26 +0100
    Subject: Re: [linux-elitists] Re: Yet another mozilla atrocity
    Message-ID: <20031003230926.GJ15928@guildenstern.dyndns.org>

    on Fri, Oct 03, 2003 at 12:19:50PM +1000, Martin Pool (mbp@samba.org)
    wrote:

    I'm going to pick up the non-sequitorishness of this all again.

    ...

    > If software authors want to address an audience who does not enjoy
    > editing dot files in vi, who are you to tell them not to?

    If we want to point out the very obvious flaws and problems in a
    scheme, who are you to tell us to shut up?

    GNOME's development team is welcome to follow any idiotic path of
    development they wish to.  They are not welcome to tell the rest of
    the community to stuff it *and* shut up.  "Stuff it" is acceptable,
    but that's a two-way street.  It's not a particularly rewarding
    journey.

    ...

    There are happy mediums.  You're presenting a false dichotomy.

    ...

    Again, you're throwing up a false dichotomy.

    [The above was apparently too incendiary and flame-baiting for Mr.
    Waugh's tender sensitivities, see following.]

    ----------------
    From: Jeff Waugh <jdub@perkypants.org>
    Date: Sat, 4 Oct 2003 09:34:31 +1000
    Subject: Re: [linux-elitists] Re: Yet another mozilla atrocity
    Message-ID: <20031003233431.GU1097@lazarus>

    <quote who="Karsten M. Self">

    ...

    Most of what you're gabbing on about is irrelevant, however. These
    projects don't exist to make *you* happy, with all of your anal
    retentive long-term *nix user ideas of How Stuff Should Work (I have
    many of these too). We form a very vocal 1% of computer users, so it's
    not like we're an interesting group to optimise for. But hey, I'm sure
    your backend will rock.

    ----------------
    From: Jeff Waugh <jdub@perkypants.org>
    Date: Wed, 8 Oct 2003 10:36:59 +1000
    Subject: Re: [linux-elitists] Re: Yet another mozilla atrocity
    Message-ID: <20031008003658.GR15895@lazarus>

    <quote who="Karsten M. Self">

    ... which makes you sufficiently qualified to say "you're doing it all
    wrong, and I know just how you should do it", just like every other
    random gimp who thinks they know the score.

    ----------------
    From: Jeff Waugh <jdub@perkypants.org>
    Date: Wed, 8 Oct 2003 13:33:39 +1000
    Subject: Re: [linux-elitists] Re: Yet another mozilla atrocity
    Message-ID: <20031008033339.GB21801@lazarus>

    <quote who="Karsten M. Self">

    ...

    Sorry, but you've come off as an angry young man who doesn't feel the
    need to listen (particularly to Martin, who has replied with much more
    patience and thoroughness than I).

    ----------------
    From: Jeff Waugh <jdub@perkypants.org>
    Date: Thu, 9 Oct 2003 06:11:51 +1000 (EST)
    Subject: Re: [linux-elitists] Re: Yet another mozilla atrocity
    Message-ID: <4926.202.129.64.242.1065643911.squirrel@mail.solutionsfirst.com.au

    If Karsten couched his concerns in a productive and reasonable
    manner, he wouldn't have received the less than interested (although
    almost entirely diplomatic, by contrast) response. Don't diss the
    car when you want the keys, etc.

    [Note:  Been there, done that, got the tee-shirt with the butcher knife
    and blood still stuck to it...]



Act V:  Jeff Waugh.  His lips are moving....
--------------------------------------------

    ----------------
    From: Jeff Waugh <jdub@perkypants.org>
    Date: Thu, 9 Oct 2003 06:36:49 +1000 (EST)
    Subject: Re: [linux-elitists] Re: Yet another mozilla atrocity
    Message-ID: <1500.202.129.64.242.1065645409.squirrel@mail.solutionsfirst.com.au

    ...

    Go back to the start of the thread, see Karsten's aggressive
    language straight up, unprovoked. I don't believe I've flamed him,
    but my response certainly hasn't been glowingly kind. One wonders
    why it would be expected.

    [Um.  Yeah.  Right.]

    The only issues you've raised have been abstract. Karsten has raised
    practical issues (but hasn't been receptive to calm discussion about
    them).

    [Note:  there had been, to this point, little in the way of direct
    addressing of issues.  Including, very specifically, documentation,
    encoded values (the Evolution News/Weather page), etc.  Some of
    which were, eventually, after much heartbreak and dissembling, faced
    full on.  Mostly by Pool rather than Waugh.]

    So, I'd prefer to be discussing the practical points with Karsten,
    really.

    [Note:  however Waugh repeatedly either dismisses concerns,
    dismisses me (and others) as variously unqualified or not target
    (despite the fact we're users of GNOME and GNOME software), lies,
    impugnes motives.  Etc.]

    ----------------
    From: Jeff Waugh <jdub@perkypants.org>
    Date: Thu, 9 Oct 2003 20:29:47 +1000 (EST)
    Subject: Re: [linux-elitists] Re: Yet another mozilla atrocity
    Message-ID: <3948.202.129.64.242.1065695387.squirrel@mail.solutionsfirst.com.au>

    [Note:  responding to myself]

    Dude, you kicked it all off by flaming

    [Note:  his lips are moving...]

    Sheesh, dude, take a step back.

    [Note:  counsel yourself, Waugh.]

    I wouldn't bother dealing with this kind of thread on any other
    list, but I'm willing to take your inappropriate level of flamage

    [Note:  <coff>]



Act VI:  Jeff Waugh.  Can't see the trees for the trees...
----------------------------------------------------------

    ----------------
    From: Jeff Waugh <jdub@perkypants.org>
    Date: Thu, 9 Oct 2003 19:02:29 +1000 (EST)
    Subject: Re: [linux-elitists] Re: Yet another mozilla atrocity
    Message-ID: <4279.202.129.64.242.1065690149.squirrel@mail.solutionsfirst.com.au>

    Ha ha, interesting quoting there. You were talking about software
    interoperability, not interface design. Sheesh.

    [Forest/tree impedence mismatch.  Typical.]

    Noooo... The phrase used was "masturbatory preferences". Now, I'm
    not so great with technical jargon for grammar, but you cannot argue
    that my description of "masturbatory preferences" means that "all
    preferences are masturbatory". What a silly thing to say. All along,
    I have been referring to Havoc's essay and "balance", not
    "preferences are evil".

    [...here's the shovel, Waugh.  Keep digging.]

    Um, dude, GConf has issues, but your criticisms aren't in the set of
    stuff that we really care about (modifying stuff with $EDITOR).

    [..."I'm not listening!" </PrincessBride taunt="Humperdink">]

    > Havoc writes a phrase that's going to be popular with harried
    > programmers.  Like a number of other topics he's opened his yap
    > on, it's bullshit.  I call 'em like I see 'em.

    In context, it is not bullshit. We have an extraordinarily open
    landscape for clueless boofheads to provide reams of their "insight"
    and "wisdom" to dedicated hackers who really know their stuff. It
    gets old very quickly.  It gets old extremely quickly in high
    profile Free Software projects, such as GNOME and the kernel.

    [...so we answer to nobody.  Gee....]


    ----------------
    From: "Karsten M. Self" <kmself@ix.netcom.com>
    Date: Thu, 9 Oct 2003 13:45:22 +0100
    Subject: Re: [linux-elitists] Re: Yet another mozilla atrocity
    Message-ID: <20031009124522.GL5188@guildenstern.dyndns.org>

    on Thu, Oct 09, 2003 at 08:29:47PM +1000, Jeff Waugh (jdub@perkypants.org)
    wrote:

    > Dude, you kicked it all off by flaming.

    Bullshit.

    If you want to find personal insults, look for the string 'Boofhead'
    in this thread.

    [Or others.  See "R-E-S-P-E-C-T" above".]

    I've cursed.  I've sworn at bugs and (perceived) design defects.
    I've given frank assessments of feature characteristics.  I've
    cussed in context of specific repeated misstatements of my own
    views.  And I've called your own persistent non-answers (with some
    exceptions) as I've seen 'em.  This includes pointing out instances
    of intellectual dishonesty or incompetence.  Supposing they can be
    distinguished.

    ----------------
    From: Jeff Waugh <jdub@perkypants.org>
    Date: Sun, 4 Jan 2004 05:39:41 +1100
    Subject: Re: [linux-elitists] Re: GNOME > you
    Message-ID: <20040103183941.GR8159@lazarus>

    But the funniest one - and l-e loves it - is "because you don't think
    hackers or traditional Free Software users are your 'target market', GNOME
    is therefore totally unusable for them". It's hard to keep a straight face
    when you have to say, "gee, why are all your geeky mates using Mac OS X
    then, you nerf-herder?"

    [Note:  Substantiation.  We've heard of it.]

    ----------------
    From: Jeff Waugh <jdub@perkypants.org>
    Date: Tue, 6 Jan 2004 15:58:25 +1100
    Subject: Re: [linux-elitists] Re: GNOME > you
    Message-ID: <20040106045825.GZ1407@lazarus>

    That is only common sense. Sometimes I think you argue all the harder
    because you refuse to listen.

    [ToDo:  order another pot/kettle...]

    ----------------
    From: Jeff Waugh <jdub@perkypants.org>
    Date: Sun, 4 Jan 2004 04:53:47 +1100
    Subject: Re: [linux-elitists] Re: GNOME > you
    Message-ID: <20040103175347.GQ8159@lazarus>

    You are being pointlessly abstract. When you come back to Earth, hopefully
    with reference to the initial examples, let me know.

    [Note:  See "substantiation, we've heard of it.]



Act VII:  Your greatest entertainment value:
--------------------------------------------

    ----------------
    From: Jeff Waugh <jdub@perkypants.org>
    Date: Wed, 7 Jan 2004 01:19:46 +1100
    Subject: Re: [linux-elitists] Re: GNOME > you
    Message-ID: <20040106141946.GV1407@lazarus>

    <quote who="Chip Salzenberg">

    I don't think the unwarranted abuse has been appropriate. It hasn't been
    polite disagreement, suggestion of error or diplomatic discussion.

    [Memo to self:  No pots, kettles, supplies exhausted, vendors
    backordered.]

    I think the work of my peers - whatever project they work on - deserves far
    more respect

    [Note:  <mote type="in god's eye">]

    ----------------

    From: Jeff Waugh <jdub@perkypants.org>
    Date: Wed, 7 Jan 2004 02:24:20 +1100
    Subject: Re: [linux-elitists] Re: GNOME > you
    Message-ID: <20040106152420.GE1407@lazarus>

    <quote who="Chip Salzenberg">

    Right, then: People deserve respect and politeness for this kind of work.

    [Note:  Irony.  Still your greatest entertainment value]

    ----------------
    From: Jeff Waugh <jdub@perkypants.org>
    Date: Wed, 7 Jan 2004 03:46:43 +1100
    Subject: Re: [linux-elitists] Re: GNOME > you
    Message-ID: <20040106164643.GQ1407@lazarus>

    <quote who="Chip Salzenberg">

    Politeness is due for all, even in their independence (which is how I have
    related them, despite your charges).

    [Historical revisionism.  In GNOME, it's *not* an option, it comes
    bundled...]

    ----------------
    From: Jeff Waugh <jdub@perkypants.org>
    Date: Tue, 6 Jan 2004 21:58:42 +1100
    Subject: Re: [linux-elitists] gnome, trial by fire
    Message-ID: <20040106105842.GM1407@lazarus>

    <quote who="tek">

    ...

    You are being combative....

    You are being combative....

    I'm sorry, but your attitude, combativeness and laissez-faire approach to
    testing GNOME are not helping your communication.

    ----------------
    From: Jeff Waugh <jdub@perkypants.org>
    Date: Tue, 6 Jan 2004 21:30:15 +1100
    Subject: Re: [linux-elitists] gnome, trial by fire
    Message-ID: <20040106103015.GK1407@lazarus>

    Be as blunt as you want, but I can't see any reason why I would be offended
    by frank, polite, and reasonable discussion

    [Soundrack:  orchestra swells, lead by strings, brass...]

------------------------------------------------------------------------


Peace.

-- 
Karsten M. Self <kmself@ix.netcom.com>        http://kmself.home.netcom.com/
 What Part of "Gestalt" don't you understand?
    George W. is deceptive to be sure. Dissembling, too. And let's not
    forget deceitful. He is lacking veracity and frankness, and void of
    sooth, though seemingly sincere in his proclivity for pretense. But
    he did not lie.
    http://www.jointhebushwhackers.com/not_a_liar.cfm
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