[linux-elitists] Re: GNOME > you

Karsten M. Self kmself@ix.netcom.com
Tue Jan 6 01:47:48 PST 2004

on Tue, Jan 06, 2004 at 07:15:43PM +1100, Jeff Waugh (jdub@perkypants.org) wrote:
> <quote who="Karsten M. Self">
> > > You are being pointlessly abstract. When you come back to Earth,
> > > hopefully with reference to the initial examples, let me know.
> > 
> > Now *that* is a cop out.
> > 
> > I've done been cheated!  I want my money back.
> I'm not going to bother replying to your invective from now on. 

Replying to the substance would be a very pleasant change.  I endorse
your resolution.

> It has been suggested to me a number of times now that you only derive
> entertainment from the pointless abuse of Free Software developers
> displayed here, 

The humor is best appreciated by those with a strong appreciation of
irony, and for those who can bear the distinctly unpleasant public show
of a project in free-fall.

I lost my own patience and appreciation with you when you failed,
repeatedly, to address specific functional failings of GNOME, GNOME
apps, the GNOME project (including destruction and/or abandonment of
incredibly useful sub-projects such as Galeon and Pan).  Detailed
previously.  Instead focusing on invective, trite responses, evasions,
and hand-waves.

I've made a point of highlighting your ridiculous, abrasive, dismissive,
and non-responsive posts.  If and where you provide useful information, I
have and will acknowledge it.  I'm not going to succor your own
destructive tendencies.

> and that cutting off the oxygen supply would be the best method of
> shutting you up, and ceasing your destructive rants. I would love to
> explain where we're coming from, and why we've done what we have, but
> it is patently clear that you are not interested in establishing a
> reasoned and thoughtful understanding on the issues. 

You flat out fail to acknowledge or discuss flaws.   Witness Jim
Richardson's unanswered questions as well as my own.

> You just want to shit on our work, and now you're trolling the rest of
> the threads to get a reaction.

I believe I've made this request before:  Don't assume or impugn my
motives.  It's really annoying.

GNOME's done some things well.

It's done a number of things poorly.

It's *radically* fucked up regarding several applications I find
exceedingly useful.  Which are in large part "GNOME" apps, regardless of
whether or not the GNOME Project "owns" them.  You're creating an
infrastructure which extends beyond your immediate purview.  And you _do_
have an obligation to see that it's useful and can be tracked
non-destructively.  Or developers will abandon it.  GNOME has shone
itself to be capricious enough in the past.  In the past I largely kept
my thoughts to myself where I saw issues or things I didn't particularly
care for.  I don't feel that's an acceptable option any more.  Your
reaction isn't changing my view.

And when the response to criticisms is the classic GNOME-go-round:

  - Nontechnical users are our target base.
  - Technical users are not our target base, and can't comment on GNOME.
  - Nontechnical users aren't coders, and can't comment on GNOME.

...I'm seeing a _huge_ accountability gap opening up.

I'm not the only one, as others on this thread have made clear.  I'm
also hearing from numerous others that my observations are striking a

Good UI is hard.  There is no One True Way.  Among the more spectacular
disasters of past 'Nix history have been the various UIs and desktops:
NEWS, X/Athena, OpenLook, NeXT, Motif, VUE, CDE -- all failed, died, or
stirred up storms of protest, and very often a critical component in the
process, if not _the_ critical component, was the organizational and
(human) relational aspect.  Sun's unwillingness to give up control (gee,
where have we seen that...) with NEWS.  The legendary X Windows Disaster
(largely mitigated over the ensuing two decades).  NeXT in its
elegance...but very nearly a dead end (though many concepts re-emerged
in your own holy grail:  OS X.  Bureaucratic clusterfucks in OSF, Motif,
VUE, and CDE.  This last trend one I see a strong risk of repeating in

If you don't have the stomach or integrity for it, Mr. Waugh, get out.


Karsten M. Self <kmself@ix.netcom.com>        http://kmself.home.netcom.com/
 What Part of "Gestalt" don't you understand?
    I could give you my word as a Spaniard?
    No good. I've known too many Spaniards.
    - Princess Bride
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