[linux-elitists] Re: Yet another mozilla atrocity

Karsten M. Self kmself@ix.netcom.com
Thu Oct 9 03:07:05 PDT 2003

Jess:  first, thanks for a measure of reserve and sanity.

on Wed, Oct 08, 2003 at 08:30:19PM -0400, Jesse Hutton (jhutton@eden.rutgers.edu) wrote:
> On Wed, 8 Oct 2003, Tanner Lovelace wrote:
> > Jeff Waugh wrote:

> Since there seems to be such a thick communication barrier in place here
> that is preventing the free flow of information, I'll translate: What Jeff
> means is that your concerns (and the same might be said of Karsten, as he
> isn't a gnome user either) 

Point of fact:  I do use some GNOME apps.  I don't use the full GNOME
dekstop.  In particular, I've been a heavy user of Galeon since 0.10
days.  Several of the issues I've encountered are specific to it.  I've
also used a number of other apps (Gabber, Pan, Gnumeric, AbiWord) on a
periodic basis.  And I'll occasionally boot various desktops to see how
they compare to my prefered configuration (WindowMaker), just to keep my
chops up.  So:  I use some GNOME apps frequently, the full suite less
often, but occasionally.

> are not founded on anything real or practical.  You don't use the
> system, and/or you have had no practical experience with the system,
> so how could you know whether or not Gnome is limiting too much
> configurability? Everything you're arguing is based on heresay. In
> other words, you haven't raised *any* real points to address, only
> what seem to be positions of principle (and which may or may not apply
> to anything Gnome related) 

This is my specific impression dealing with Jeff.  Martin's been rather
more forthcoming, and I appreciate this.

> -- 1) that it is a mistake to limit configuration options; 2) that
> non-coders can design good programs and configuration and desktop
> integration systems too; and 3) that "users" like Karsten (who
> obviously would *not* touch Gnome's "brain damage" with a ten foot
> pole) are being dismissed out of hand (and worse, ridiculed) because
> they hold different opinions than Gnome developers (and supporters).

> 2) is largely bullshit, i.e. do we have and takers for "non-architects
> who can design good skyscrapers" or "non-aviation experts who can
> design good airplanes," such that you or anyone else with their head
> screwed on tight would risk their skin within one of these structures?

For whole-system design, no.

But skyscrapers and airplanes aren't individual projects, they're
designed and built by teams, with specialties:  flight controls,
hydraulics, materials, fuel bladder design, interior layout.  The person
who comes up with a more sensible passenger seating design needn't be
qualified to punch rivets on the airframe.  Jeff's argument by way of
Pennington's essay appears to make the opposite case.

Otherwise:  a good set of points.


Karsten M. Self <kmself@ix.netcom.com>        http://kmself.home.netcom.com/
 What Part of "Gestalt" don't you understand?
    Bush/Cheney '04: Asses of Evil
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