[linux-elitists] anybody using non BIND dns?

Ben Woodard ben@valinux.com
Fri Feb 2 09:17:45 PST 2001


Note: You seem to have taken my response as me stating my own
viewpoints.  The things that I have said below are not my view
points. They are my impression about what is going on in Vixie's mind.

-ben

> > A couple of years ago I had a nice long talk with Paul Vixie (he was
> > asking me -- or Cisco really for money so he was willing to put up
> > with the indignity of talking to someone as clueless as me). He really
> > doesn't fall into any of the common camps of "proprietary software
> > advocate" "open source software advocate" or "free software
> > advocate". He is his own animal and has values that really conflict
> > with some commonly held "open source" or "free software" values. This
> > really doesn't surprise me. I think that what we are seeing here is
> > are two examples of Vixie's elitism. He is truly an "elitist".
> > 
> > (Even though this list is supposedly comprised of "linux-elitists" we
> > are all probably dramatically more egalitarian than Vixie. It is
> > almost humorous that this discussion sprang up here on this list and
> > that Heather's egalitarian values conflict with Vixies's elitistic
> > values. Should we act like true elitists and throw Heather off of this
> > list because of her egalitarian point of view?)
>  
> All OS' suck for different reasons.  All hardware sucks for different
> reasons.  In our lives we classically merge so many things that suck it's
> amazing we can boot up in the morning.
> 
> Thus my desire of and eventually advocacy for an OS that doesn't crash 
> so often it has to boot up every morning.
> 
> I am cool whether y'all give a rats ass that I do cool things, or even
> bother to mention htem, or not.
> 
> Curiously, I don't think that egalitarian and elite are opposites.
> 
> Feel better yet?  If not, keep reading, I've got the right bits set to
> have fun with ya...
> 
> > The first example of elitism is with regard to working on BIND. Vixie
> > honestly believes:
> > 1) Very few people (all of which are well known to him) understand the
> > idiosynchrocies of DNS and the associated RFC's well enough to make
> > changes to BIND without fucking things up.
> > 2) Virtually no-one is a good enough programmer to modify BIND without
> > fucking it up.
> > 3) Since items 1 and 2 are true there is no point in even looking at
> > patches from someone unknown to him.
> 
> The only question then becomes how such a New Diva/Godling would become
> known to him.  
> 
> The linux kernel list allows such godlings to converse, but also for clued
> programmers and people with ... curious requirements ... to lurk so that
> the end product ends up designed for the real world instead of godling
> dream models of the world.  That an occasional lurker may actually be 
> skilled enough to ascend to demigod status and submit patches or be trusted 
> to commit themselves to maintaining a real chunk of code is almost chance
> compared to the benefit of a good stiff dose of reality.
> 
> It doesn't keep them from having private working groups, getting together
> for beer, and if they have an elite list somewhere as well, heck - good
> for them.
>  
> > The second example of elitism is with regard to working with BIND. He
> > also believes:
> > 1) There are very few organizations which have a serious need to work
> > with BIND. 
> 
> repeat after me:
> "this list isn't tech support for people who can't read the RFC"
> 
> Sound like they have a failure to agree on meaning for the term "work with",
> do we mean power-user I have 15000 hosts the internet will never see, or
> folks who bang on code, or DNS monkeys who haven't finished grokking the
> zone file sitting in front of them?   Category 3 should be fobbed off on
> some GUI or or sold some expensive commercial offering to "hold their 
> widdle hands for dem".  Everyone else should be able to be grownups.
> 
> > 2) It is perfectly acceptable to make an member's only organization of
> > these elite users which affords them access to some extra support in
> > the form of items 1-4 below. (he is an elitist after all)
> 
> Heh.  He could do that without bothering to take over a list that's
> already extant.  We did.
> 
> Also, such elitism as we are describing here, is not about money, so a 
> bunch of non qualified drones who don't belong on such a well-filled 
> list thinking they can buy their way aboard sounds like a bug.
> 
> > 3) There is danger in sharing certain information such as security
> > problems with the community at large.
> 
> security by obscurity is bull pockey and you know it.
> 
> discussing possible interesting design flaws/etc. that are not yet 
> advisories and are about tweaking code bases or plotting the design 
> of new features, is another thing, and it sounds fine that such stuff
> could be on a private, even NDA, list.
> 
> But by the time it's an "advisory" - look out for this, and what class
> of Nasty Issue it might raise - open your darn mouth, the more morons
> out there that keep the bug in its live state is the longer you have
> to put up with it being a bug.
> 
> > 4) Most of the people who use BIND are incompetent and supporting them
> > is a waste of time.
> 
> see "not tech support".  I'm not even joking.
> 
> > 5) Allowing incompetent users on the same mailing list as elite users
> > wastes the time of the elite users and chases them away.
> > 
> > -ben
> 
> So, has the list they are talking about warping devolved to a tech support
> for BIND list?  in which case why demean your elite crew by taking it from
> the babies?  
> 
> btw, not having a list for your babies/end-users to live in reduces greatly
> your ability to step down from Olympus once a while and express your godly 
> splendour for them. 
> 
> * Heather *
> And it should be the law: If you use the word `paradigm' without knowing
> what the dictionary says it means, you go to jail.  No exceptions.
> 		-- David Jones




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