[linux-elitists] Opera beta for linux available

Aaron Lehmann aaronl@vitelus.com
Fri Oct 6 17:35:11 PDT 2000

On Fri, Oct 06, 2000 at 04:17:06PM -0700, Deirdre Saoirse wrote:
> On Fri, 6 Oct 2000, Eugene Leitl wrote:
> > That was a cheap shot (owch). And you forgot lots of silly
> > parenthesis. And 8 MBytes continuously swapping (256 MBytes
> > continuously swapping, in my case. When Netscape and XEmacs are
> > fighting for the core sometimes even the GUI loses; my window dock has
> > crashed a week ago. Now here's a feature of KDE I'm not missing one
> > bit).
> Interesting. I've never had that happen with my editor of choice (Nedit),
> which is not exactly lightweight.

Wrong. Nedit is one of the lightest, smallest, fastest editors that it
is resonable to program in on an X-Windows based system. I would say
that vim is much more of a heavyweight than Nedit. If you want to get
something lighter than Nedit, you'll probably have to look at
something with either no X support (which has quite an unfair
advantage) or something with an unbearable lack of useful features
such as indentation and syntax highlighting.

> But I'd say that C is a *fuck* of a lot better language for almost
> everything than Lisp. Try debugging a large Lisp project. When you've done
> one on the scale of the average commercial software project, then I think
> you'll have earned the right to tell programmers what tools they maybe
> should or shouldn't use. We still won't listen, mind you.

I lost you. Lisp has been superior to C in all of my experience. Lisp
is easy to debug becuase it's interpreted, can usually be run
interactively, and has a simple syntax that doesn't confuse people.
Best of all, it doesn't crash but instead displays reasonable error
messages. Have you ever programmed in a Lisp dialect? From your list
below, it doesn't look like it.

I remember JWZ quoting someone who said that "Any large C++ project
will reimplement all of the features avaiable in the Common Lisp
libraries." Just look at Mozilla!

> Maybe you really need to learn what it's like to be a programmer. I've
> done it for a living for a quarter century now. The primary languages I've
> used, in order: Basic, Pascal, Forth, C, C++, Python, PHP.

All of the above suck except for Forth. C has a few redeeming
qualities too.

I've been impressed by PostScript, Scheme, Emacs Lisp, and Assembler.
I want to learn ML.
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