[linux-elitists] Opera beta for linux available

Eugene Leitl eugene.leitl@lrz.uni-muenchen.de
Fri Oct 6 14:53:36 PDT 2000


Deirdre Saoirse writes:

 > Yes, then they could have shot themselves in ANY body part. Recursively
 > even.
 
That was a cheap shot (owch). And you forgot lots of silly
parenthesis. And 8 MBytes continuously swapping (256 MBytes
continuously swapping, in my case. When Netscape and XEmacs are
fighting for the core sometimes even the GUI loses; my window dock has
crashed a week ago. Now here's a feature of KDE I'm not missing one
bit).

 > > We'd be working with successors of Lisp machines after two decades of
 > > evolution, instead of clunky PC boxes. Even without that evolution, a
 > > Lisp machine environment from mid 1980s does look rather modern.
 > 
 > ::snort::
 
Well, you don't say which IDE you're using. (Unless ::snort:: is
something like SNiFF). Anyways, it's hard to argue about a reality
branch that didn't happen. The stuff I see in my head is pretty nice,
but I can't beam that imagery at you.

 > > In fact, we're arguably regressing. If Lisp had any community, I'd be
 > > sticking to Lisp instead of the Python/C thing.
 > 
 > You know, why don't you start one? That way, us Python fans wouldn't have
 > to listen to the Lisp weenies whine all the time. You too could submit

You pegged me wrong, mine was a meta level comment. Instead of running
like herdless sheep from one knoll of grass to the other, we should
have flocked to the first decent knoll, and stayed there. There is
synergy in numbers. Larger communities are overproportionally
productive, the more so the longer they persist. Which particular
language to use doesn't matter, as long as it's safe and powerful.

 > patches to Emacs. The rest of us could use more fun functional languages
 > like ML when we feel pressed to do so.
 
The question is not whether the stuff is more fun or elegant, it's
whether it allows you to write stable industry-strength code. Lisp was
the first decent language to come along, so the community should have
stayed there. I wish *nix/C didn't happen. Forth at the low end
(dirty, mean and lean, no bloat), Lisp at the high end (safe and
elegant, but a bit on the fat side), this would have been cool.

Emacs is broken since it doesn't do threading. Nor incremental
nonintrusive gc. No patches will do, it needs badly to be rewritten
from scratch, because it sucks so badly. And I'm not a coder, so I'm
forced to stick to a large enough community (damn these brownian
sheep). Python/C seems to offer the righ mix of nice features,
productivity (especially for a noncoder), performance and
support. Perl/C has too many warts, albeit a larger community.

I wish programmers had less maestro/diva streaks, and wouldn't keep on
fragmenting into balkanized communities, producing little isolated
noninteroperable code sniglets, and most of them of lousy quality
while bleating out that their spot is sweeeetest. Same mechanism has
been killing the web, but no one seems to be giving a flying
fuck. Everybody is running around like overexcited 3-year olds at a
children birthday. "Vision" meaning whatever you're looking at right
now. Baaah.

 > I'd be hard-pressed to name a language I like less than Lisp.
 > I think I even prefer Visual Basic, and that's saying something.

I honestly don't understand that. Is it the verbosity or parenthesis
which irk you, or something deeper? Snootiness? Stench of the rotting
AI carcass?




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